RPG Soapbox

Alternative title: 'How i learned to stop worrying and use my primaries"

Tossing this up from a thread I started in the IV forum, since I think we have people who don't check it out. Anyway. Read it over and let me know what you think.

I've never made it a secret that I've disliked how Lores are treated. Instead of something that you roll, they're treated as a static thing which, depending upon who you ask let you know several different things at several different levels. Never really liked it. What I do like, however, is rolling dice. Rolling lots of dice. That said, I also understand that there has to be some way of avoiding either the "I ran into this supernatural critter who spilled their guts and now I know everything!" or the "derp I know nothing I go violate the Masquerade now derp derp" problems.

There is, however, a way around this which I feel gets ignored. It does not rely on a system made up on New Bremen and instead cleaves strongly to the stuff outlined in the actual books, thus avoiding having to rummage through huge amounts of fanmade stuff to find what you're looking for.

The various lores in the books are written up to say that you know names, you know places, you know facts, you know legends, you know how to act, you know what is expected of you, you know how these all work together, and at high enough levels you are able to go 'that's bullshit' when you encounter something. Academics, Etiquette, Politics, Law, and Occult cover each of these rather neatly, it's just that they're spread out over multiple skills. That's not to say that Lores are worthless - I'll go into that more later.

Academics: Covers the names, places, and some of the facts concerning your sect and kindred/cainite history. As per the core book (leaving aside how the blurb for it involves Hesha laying his pimp hand down concerning the Brujah's activities in Carthage) it says that it covers past and potentially future movements of the Jyhad. It is not uncommon in the various clanbooks to have a splat who started off as a mortal with absurd levels of this and Occult (typically in the 3-4 range) and 'knew too much' before they are brought over. There's a reason for this.
Etiquette: Covers how you act in Kindred/Cainite society. One of the specialties for it is, in fact, Kindred Society. Funny, that. Even your rudest legbreaker who does without this Skill is still able to, with difficulty, strive to fit in and not make a complete and total ass of themselves. This means that you have to be able to figure out the norms and procedures you are expected to follow.
Politics: Pretty explanatory. You know of the relationships forged between the various clans (such as, say, how the Toreador/Ventrue/Tremere alliance lead to the formation of the Camarilla or how closely the Lasombra and Tzimitsce worked to build the Sabbat or the ties between the Brujah and Assamites in the formation of the Anarchs, as an example). Extrapolating upon this, you'll be able to figure out how on earth they do what they do and thus how they act.
Law: Same boat as Politics. With this, a Ventrue knows how to act when he's at a Board meeting and the Harpy is able to flay you with words for not sticking to decorum. You know who answers to who, you know the precedent for this answering, and you know how to use/abuse said answering to your own favor.
Occult: The final catch-all for what's fallen through the cracks. Understanding disciplines (especially the more arcane ones), the legends the various clans have built up around themselves, and in the end outsider supernaturals. Yes, I'll be getting in to that as well.

When viewed in this light, it's not hard to see how different clans will have different strengths and weaknesses in figuring things out. This is natural, as each of the clans (and sects) brings in individuals with fitting mindsets. Each of the sects has its own methods of ensuring that you know what is required of you - since your character is alive and not a pile of ash somewhere, it's safe to assume that by walking about you realize what you need to do.

Yeah But What?
That is all well and good, but simply throwing dice out and seeing what you get will not solve a problem. My solution? An Intelligence + [Relevant Ability] roll, with a difficulty which will be outlined in this posting. Each success on this roll lets you move up the ladder in what you would be able to figure out - I am using Clan Lore from the Guide to the Camarilla as an example, but it works just as well for those other lores (Sect, Underworld [because Streetwise is not good enough for retarded reasons], etc). In short...

One Success - You can spot a member of a clan (typically by their flaws and norms, I would imagine) / figure out things which if you've survived long enough you SHOULD know / Holy crap they exist
Two Successes - You know the basics (say, all Brujah are hot-headed assholes for a reason or Tzimitsce can give you new facial genitalia) and can tell when someone is telling you truly outrageous lies
Three Successes - Congrats, you know the basic layout and how they act (the Ventrue board meetings, the basics of the code of Milan, how to use the Traditions to fuck someone over in uncreative ways)
Four Successes - Holy crap, you know stuff! (Say, the history of a clan, be able to quote some of the more arcane truths concerning the Jyhad, how to use the Traditions to fuck someone over in -creative- ways)
Five Successes - Oh shit, you know too much. (The example I would point to is the Academics blurb I mentioned, where Hesha drives a Brujah to frenzy by quoting chapter and verse about how the Brujah were in cahoots with the Infernalists).

These are not concrete - this is your character struggling to come up with facts by dredging their memory. One success on an Intelligence+Politics roll might have you go "yeah, the Prince answers to someone else but who the hell cares?", two successes means that you know -about- the Justicars, three successes means that you can name them, etc. Characters forget, characters flub up, this is to be encouraged because it leads to hilarity and enriches role playing.

Okay, What's My Difficulty to Punch Him in the Face?
A roll is worthless without a difficulty attached to it. A Camarilla Ventrue should not be rolling the same difficulty to figure out how to act at a clan gathering as he is figuring out how the Sabbat Lasombra work. We can all agree that different situations call for different targets. So, in interest of making this more complicated, allow me to present how I feel these ranks should be sorted.

Difficulty Six - This is the base difficulty, and would be used in situations where:
A member of a clan is attempting to figure out how to act around his clan elders - Etiquette and Politics would both work here
A member of a sect is trying to cite precedent in order to win an argument - Politics and Law
A vampire is trying to realize that 'sunlight is bad' - Occult or, in cases such as basic things like this, Survival (yes, this is how someone with no Occult is able to figure out why they should not sunbathe)

Difficulty Seven - This added bit of difficulty represents a situation where your character has a passing familiarity, and would be used in situations where:
You are attempting to figure out how to act around those members of another clan which shares your sect - Etiquette, Politics, Academics or Law could all be used here, depending upon how your character goes about it. Be creative.
You are trying to figure out the norms of those members of your clan which operate in other sects (Schismatic Assamites trying to understand their brethren, Nosferatu mingling together, Camarilla/Sabbat attempting to figure out how the Anarchs work or vice versa) - Same as above, with the addition of Occult if you're trying to figure out some opposing legends.
You are trying to figure out -why- 'sunlight is bad', as well as skimming through well known weaknesses for other supernaturals you might have heard about - Occult

Difficulty Eight - These represent those on a completely different wavelength as your character. The major difference between this and the previous difficulty is that you need to make multiple rolls instead of just one.
A member of the Black Hand is attempting to masquerade as a loyal member of the Camarilla - Depending upon how vocal your character is being, you'll be making lots of rolls...
A Tzimitsce trying to figure out exactly how best to do unpleasant things to the Tremere - Same as above
You mean that there's more than one explanation for why 'sunlight is bad'?

Difficulty Nine - This would be dealing with 'outsiders', those other supernaturals which you encounter but typically don't give a rat's ass about. Unless you've taken a particular interest in them, in which case, hey, your character is both intelligence AND heavily invested in occult! Have fun!
Oh god oh god oh god is it silver or tin
God damn fae showing up god I hate them
What the hell turned me into a lawn chair?

As for the spending of willpower on any of these rolls... I'm actually okay with it. One success gets you rumors and half-truths, something which your character would have turned up anyway.

Wait a Second, What About-
Lores, you ask? I mean, plenty of people have invested in them and I would not dream of taking it away from them. Simply put, if you have a rating in a lore you would roll that ability and would enjoy the benefits of a lowered difficulty - having a lore in something outside of your character splat gives you a -1 break on the difficulty. If your Camarilla Ventrue has Intelligence 3, Politics 4, and Sabbat Lore 2, you would have a choice between rolling seven dice at difficulty eight or five at difficulty seven. Should your Gangrel happen to have Lupine/Garou Lore, you're rolling at difficulty 8.

If I had my way, I would tie your Lore in with the lowest of the four 'core' Knowledges (Academics, Law, Politics and Occult) but then I am a rat bastard.

And, yes, I understand that this opens a whole can of worms in that whole 'roleplay verses rollplay' debate, but I find that to be a myth and have always combined the two to experience abject joy.

In addition, I know that I have laid this out according to Vampire rules but that is only because I am most familiar with them. It would be simple enough to see this transformed into a system which works for any of the venues. A Mage would roll difficulty 6 for his own Tradition, difficulty 7 for those others who walk with him, difficulty 8 for the Union (arguably certain Traditions, such as the SoE and VA, would be rolling at difficulty 7 for that), etc. For Garou, replace Tradition with Tribe and Union with Black Spiral Dancers.

But I Do Research And Stuff! or My Character is Full of Derp
Good for you. You're welcome to use the merits and flaws through the various books to make your character different, Scholar of the Enemy and the like. There's also the flaws out there that go in to detail about a character that's not been able to figure out vampire society thanks to the Masquerade being so effective. Heh, an effective Masquerade, I find that hilarious.

If you spend a great deal of time doing research and the like, then you have a justification of getting hold of the Occult Library background to represent you being able to look further into stuff and having the resources to make it easier. Shocking, I know. A use for this background for something other then lowering the difficulty of ritual rolls.

I'd say tons of rules and paragraphs of complicated alternatives was exactly what the doctor ordered in lieu of a simple set of lores.

Most of the write-up is explaining the reasoning behind it, such as pointing out that, yes, Academics covers Kindred history as well thanks to that bit about it helping you figure out past and future movements of the Jyhad. If you're throwing out a new idea, it's typically a smart move to include where you got not only the idea but the mechanics from.

The only actual bit of 'rules' covered in it is basically me rewording the write up for Clan Knowledge to be a little more general and the explanation of the difficulties - which are a line each with some examples included. Nothing that's not out of the core book - save for citing Clan Knowledge from a supplemental. It's not complicated, it's "hey, use your primary abilities and don't be stupid" and "weird shit is hard to figure out, stuff you're more familiar with is easier".

Layers and layers of fan-made write-ups for exactly what each level of a lore lets you know which spans for pages and pages because it's broken down exactly in mind-numbing detail that misses the big picture, that's complicated and contradicts itself depending upon which version you're looking at. Plus there's the whole "Wait a second, I have Camarilla Lore, how in the hell do I not know about the clans involved?" aspect.

*Edited due a few misspellings. Bleh.*

CB-

While I actually like what you've written up, I have a question or three...

Given that Lores are commonly treated as at least partially static (You have Cam Lore 2? Cool, you know the basics and can name quite a few Cam cities!) how does your system mesh with that?

That is to say...

If I rolled Per+Academics yesterday to determine that [target] was likely a Brujah and got 4 successes (Whoo!), should it be reasonable to accept a failure on the exact same roll today to determine if that dude who dresses like him is a Brujah too?

I mean, taking away the static quasi-tiered level of knowledge and making it what appears to be a roll and hope you don't suck system kinda makes it entirely too random and variable, doesn't it?

Figuring out someone is a fellow vampire has, to me at least, always been more of a Perception + Alertness thing (picking up the visual cues, such as the lack of breathing, blinking, and other bits of body language that cainites tend to forget to do, especially as they plummet down the humanity roll) than a lore related aspect; your character just has an easier time because they know what to look for. I'd have it be resisted with a Wits + Subterfuge (one of the specialties is, after all, feigning mortality) or use the Masquerade skill (although this one typically involves such things as being able to force your heart to beat properly during a medical exam).

To use your example, provided you were able to figure out that they were a vampire in the first place using the example I put up above, you'd make your Intelligence + Academics roll to pick up the cues you mentioned and figure it out. With four successes, you'd not only go "holy crap, Brujah!" but, provided you decided to play him for a patsy, be able to act like a Brujah yourself and fling about facts and figures to try to get him on your side. Or, if you're a prick and are looking for an excuse to kill him in self defense, you can pull a Hesha and get him to go postal on your ass.

Running into the other guy the next evening would still require you to go "oh, hey, vampire!" and a moment or three to get your facts in order before you pull the same trick again. Once you get your ratings up high enough you're able to take the success without rolling it and move on your merry way - one success falls under the "oh hey, Brujah" category. By this time, your vampire has been around long enough to justify doing that because you've gotten the experience required to do it.

And, as I said, one of my gripes with Lores is that very tiered approach, since knowing lots about the Tzimitsce (because you're a paranoid damn Tremere) really doesn't clue you in on the Sabbat and vice versa.

Well, Lores should always be considered with mental traits in mind. That is to say, you don't only know what the 'tier' of the Lore says: a moron with the same amount of Lore as a genius doesn't have the same chance of knowing something.

A character with Int 2 and Lore 2 has a Lore dice pool of 4, don't forget. One with Int 4 and Lore 2 has a dice pool of 6. That's a considerable difference. A character with a high Int should have a good chance of being able to remember an obscure fact of the Lore's field, and even one of low intelligence would at least have a chance. Plus, a character of high intelligence understands the implications of certain facts, sees patterns those of lower intelligence don't see, and can make better inferences in general.

An unfair ST will attempt to limit your knowledge to what it says on the Lore 'trait level': a fair ST will certainly take your mental attributes into consideration, with or without a die roll.

However, I do think that Academics applies to what would amount to critical thinking, philosophy, etc., and wouldn't really enter into the territory covered by Lores. Although, they may certainly intereact, i.e. doing library research in an library containing Lore knowledge, or spotting Lore knowledge in a seemingly normal academic collection, and so on.

I hate Lores. Chats have turned them into a huge waste of time energy and XP. Kinda like Influences. (Although I hate Influence more.)

The problem is I don't see a better and less complicated way of dealing with them.

The main system works, although I think buying Lores is kinda like buying a can of sunshine.

Except that, as I have mentioned previously, Academics also covers figuring out movements in the Jyhad, which does enter territory covered by Lores. Occult -certainly- covers a great deal of the things that Lores claim to do. As would Politics and Law. It's just that, unlike those four, Lore is good for one thing and one thing only, is -not- supported by the books, was created by New Bremen in an effort to control the sheer amount of insanity there, and is so limited that having Ventrue Lore means that you know nothing about the Camarilla in spite of them playing such a huge role in it and vice versa.

And, Moll, at the moment there's none of that understanding going on with the homebrewed system that is online Lores. It's a flat thing.


I wrote up a system that's more in keeping with canon, is more approachable to new people, and does not revolve around digging through heaps of competing webpages to find the example that people use.

People just don't like rolling dice for some odd reason. It's something I've never quite understood.

Honestly, I've only ever seen Lores actually used in a couple of situations, and those just leave me with a bad taste in my mouth.

Situation #1:
"I use Entrancement on you. Time to be my slave for a month."
*Month of humiliation later*
"Ha, it wore off! Time to die, fuckhead!"
"What's your Kindred Lore?"
"1, so?"
"Ohhh... Unfortunately, you don't know I used a power on you."
"....what."
"Yeah, you just think you were being my slave for fun."
"Even though we're dire enemies and I now want to kill you?"
"Yes."
"...horseshit."

Situation #2:
"With the Toreador combat wombat baring down on me, I pull out my perfectly crafted handbrush so he's entranced!"
"What's your Toreador lore?"
"...? 0? I'm a Ventrue, why would I have Tor-"
"Oh. Unfortunately, you don't know the Toreador clan weakness."
"...Clan Weaknesses aren't common knowledge?"
"No."
"...So, I don't know Nosferatu are ugly because I don't have Nosferatu Lore?"
"Well... yeah, pretty much."
"*Struggles to comprehend* How could I not know they're ugly!?"
"Well, you just probably think it's a coincidence."
"Really? Really?"

Both of those are things which lead me to do that write-up, Michael.

Ok since I was called a troll on the thread on IV for saying this is complicated and unnecessary let me explain in one place.

1. I agree with HB (I know shock and awe). This doesn't make sense when coupled with repetitive knowledge. It doesn't make sense for my Toreador to know about Archons in one scene and then suddenly forget that the Camarilla has a Sheriff in town three days later.

2. Rolling dice should only happen on an occasion when a random result is desired. This is not the case with character memory or Lore. You need a static number to determine what a character knows. Dice are cool. I'm an old school D&D guy. I like dice. I have a HUGE collection of dice. But WoD is designed around avoiding dice rolls whenever possible. The guys who created this system were tired of all the D20s and 10s and 73s and the like and actually built their system to need dice very minimally.

3. Lore actually doesn't need any system at all. The fact is when you are playing at the table you look at your ST and ask if your character can be expected to know what you wish them to know if their might be a question. There is absolutely no reason that this system cannot be employed on chat. If the call needs to be noted for future reference forums and sheet notes are available to be used.

4. Most players fudge the Lore rules anyway, especially in the Camarilla. All of these neonates with Cam Lore 1 would have no idea how to act in Court or the peculiarities that make Kindred life run smoothly. People only truly need help with the questionable calls. They know that their Ventrue knows to be good during meetings, to wear the proper attire, and to treat superiors with respect even if they have Lore 1 or even no Lore at all. What they don't know is if they can be sure that the Sabbat does nasty things to babies and old grannies with their Lore score. Their ST will tell them and frankly there is absolutely no reason for the score in the first place. Just ask your ST. That's what they're there for.

*edit to make it more clear