RPG Soapbox

I have to agree with this sentiment, seeing as I think one of the things that failed about WHO's PvP was the fact that it was populated by WoW PvPers. There's a lot less teamwork when it comes to WoW PvP, as it seems to devolved into individuals randomly jumping one another and whoever has the better button-mashing skills. Everyone was basically out for themselves, just attacking whoever seemed the best target while ignoring what was happening to those around them.

WHO PvP was built like a dungeon run, with everyone given a specific role and the need for tactics. Balanced groups needed to be made and each of the roles (healer, tank, CC, etc.) was required to do their job. The classes were not built to be uber-PvP button-mashing monsters (like the Rogues and Warlocks of WoW), so when someone from the other game tried to do just that... it didn't work. The person would die, the team would lose, and people would blame the game instead of the fact that they didn't know how to play.

That's what really ruined WHO, was the WoW players coming over and trying to play it like WoW, then throwing a fit when it didn't work. They couldn't button mash their way through the PvP (which, as you got closer to end-game, was the majority of the game), and when the independent power-levelers got to the end of the game first... they found they couldn't do end-game, because it required being there as a team. And instead of being patient, learning how to play the game and waiting for others to catch up, so everyone could have a good time? They complained about it and left, leaving others with no one to play with.... and thus the game failed.

What I worry about with any MMO coming up, whether it's SW:tOR, FF:XIV, or Dark Millenium (40k), is that I'll join in and find WoW players pulling the usual crap and then declaring the game a failure when it doesn't fit their cookie-cutter MMO ideals.

I wonder if those new MMO's will let me port in my 80 Ret Paladin?

Oh dear god but PvP in WoW drives me nuts. I gave up doing it without my guild a long time ago. With a team of people who communicate well and are properly geared PvP can kick ass. We have a few guild alliances and when we all decide to do something we pretty much kick ass. Sadly the Horde players seem to be more communication going on with them than with the alliance players.

Seems most of you didn't play during Vanilla WoW, and only played after they made PvP into EZ EPIX PLZ mode.

Trust me, when you actually had to play against your own server's opposing faction, and having to get groups, or get forced into groups that, if you were an idiot in, the entire server knew about it within 20 minutes, made the PvP more epic. When AV lasted HOURS because the playing field was mostly level, and it came down to who could summon their epic dungeon god and keep it ALIVE, it truly felt like a war.

I tried out WHO's pvp, back when it first came out, not when they added more of it to make it easier to get gear through it. It had a decent feel to it, like Vanilla WoW pvp before it was modified to fit with BC's pvp system. The problem was, it was like playing in a PvP server, without the benefit of being able to truly get a group of friends together to kill the gankers/griefers, because to get to the area that you were questing/grinding/low level pvping, your enemy was one or two shotting you. This was before they perfected the chicken... which I find amusing, but somewhat useless, when it hinders players from going back and doing quest lines (Completionist here, and I don't kill lowbies unless I have to, to keep from dying myself from being ganged up on.)

I never did many of the city raids, they generally crashed my computer (due to a permanent incompatibility with certain at the time of WHOs release, high end nVidia cards,) but the one I participated in, seemed to take place like most pvp does in any game I have played... when the enemy isn't on.

So you can blame it on the WoW pvpers, or you can simply blame it on poor implementation, or just the nature of MMORPG players out there to get their jollies off with the quick and the self satisfying.

I blame Canada personally.

Though honestly, having played in Vanilla WoW, I don't think PvP combat there was any better or worse than it is now. Blizzard is a company and they made changes to their product based off the overall consensus. The majority got what they wanted. The minority play along, but mutter about being oldhat purists that remember days when it was so much better.

For me, it's just no better or worse.

I will definitely concede this point, since I am an old hat purist who liked the hours long AVs.

WAR itself though moved to cater the majority as well, so then would it just simply be the nature of the gaming beast?

I think it is the nature of the beast, whether it's MMORPG or online RPG or table top. Those running it want it to be good, and want to take users' opinions into the mix to improve it for those who do use it. Unfortunately, sometimes they fall prey to this very thing as well, and as Michael said, become different. No better or no worse depending on who you are but definitely different, which may ruin the fun of it.